Episode #298: Be the Change You Want To See
Featuring Dhonielle Clayton
Hello change-makers, imagineers, and story-concepters, welcome to this week’s installment of Write-minded!
In this week’s extra-inspiring show, guest Dhonielle Clayton treats us to a generous conversation about effecting change in the industry and how that inevitable comes with backlash. We talk about representation in publishing, Penguin Random House’s recent firing of two high-profile publishers, and book bans—among other important topics, like packaging and IP and how kids seeing characters that look like them in fiction opens up unimagined possibilities for their futures. We also encourage you to check out the work being done at We Need Diverse Books as supplemental to this episode.
A shortlist of our favorite resources from We Need Diverse Books:
A guide to addressing book challenges for librarians, teachers, parents, and allies
Love & Community: Reflections from LGBTQ+ Creators of Banned Books
Partial transcript from the show
Brooke: I’m Brooke Warner, here with my change-minded, write-minded cohost Grant Faulkner. Grant, today we’re talking about change—and being the change you want to see in the world. Today’s guest is Dhonielle Clayton, and this is a woman who walks her talk. She’s one of those amazing publishing people who wears so many hats—author, COO of We Need Diverse Books, head of two IP story companies that have concepted and published nearly 60 projects. Central to her efforts are representation—so she’s writing and creating books that feature protagonists of color, and storylines for her community. She’s shared that her inspiration stemmed from being shut down as a creative person when she was young because she didn’t see herself in the books she was reading. And so her entire mission has been and is about creating the change and being the change-agent, which is all kinds of inspiring.
Grant: It is really inspiring, and also notable that Dhonielle has been in the trenches on this for a long time. I think the entire world woke up and took notice of the diversity and inclusion issues in the book publishing industry in 2020, in the aftermath of George Floyd’s murder, and the reckoning that followed. But prior to that there were a lot of people sounding the alarm and creating change by doing the work—and Dhonielle was one of them. I remember the specific day that We Need Diverse Books started with a hashtag in 2014, in response to a nearly all-white roster of writers at Book Expo America, which was the biggest publishing conference in America. It was my first BEA conference, and the lack of diverse representation was striking and troubling, and it’s so great that that hashtag grew into an organization that works with writers and illustrators, schools and libraries. That’s one of the good things the Internet has done.
Brooke: One of the more meaningful things that Dhonielle’s story encompasses and which she speaks directly to in the interview today is the power of seeing yourself represented, especially when you’re a young reader. We Need Diverse Books shares on its site what the benefits are to children of seeing themselves in books. So I want to share that with our listeners because there are three primary things they home in on:
#1: Seeing Reflections of Themselves
This is about how important it is to imagine what can be when you see yourself reflected, or someone who looks like you. We can see this in sports, with people like the Williams’ sisters changing tennis and opening it up to a whole new crop of young athletes of color in what was historically a very white sport. So representation is very real-world, as it supports young people to place themselves in future possibilities.
#2: Learning the True Nature of the World Around Them
This is an interesting stat—the School Library Journal says that non-white parents are three times more likely to talk about race to their children than white parents. So this is about educating young people about the world around them, giving them language to have conversations and to understand that we are a diverse culture and world at large. Education of course promotes understanding, and here we are at this inflection point where book bans and other assaults on minority groups are actively working against promoting that kind of understanding.
#3: Seeing Themselves in Characters and Their Environment
We Need Diverse Books notes that kids search for themselves in books. They write: In a survey of 2,000 schools, 90 percent of the educators believed children would become more enthusiastic readers if they had books reflecting their lives. We know we’re in a reading crisis right now. We had a recent trend in which we shared that sales are down for YA and middle grade, and I see this trend in my own life with James’s middle school peers. So the work being done here is an uphill battle, and for that reason all that much more important.
Grant: Isn’t that true, Brooke. I think there was a lot of back-patting and self-congratulation going around in the industry in 2020. Publishers were rushing to hire people of color, and made a commitment to inclusivity. And the reverberations of that are felt. Undoubtedly there are more books being published by writers of color, but there’s also a giant cultural backlash—which we’re seeing in the form of book banning, which we’re seeing even in some pretty public firings. Last year Hollywood was making news because four black DEI executives resigned or were pushed out in a single ten-day stretch. The public accusations that followed suggested that Hollywood’s commitment to DEI was just for PR. The LA Times reported at the time: “The startling string of exits comes in the midst of attacks by conservative politicians and pundits on “wokeness” in entertainment, education and other areas of American life.” This speaks to the old truism that for each step forward, it’s two steps back. The recent ouster of Lisa Lucas, a high-profile Black hire at Penguin Random House really seems to epitomize this in the publishing industry. She was brought on as the publisher of Pantheon and Schocken in 2021. She acquired one of my favorite recent books—Chain Gang All Stars. So it’s kind of shocking, but also not at all.
Brooke: Yeah, that’s my two cents on this too. Not at all shocking, and honestly just from an optics perspective alone, it looks pretty bad. And this all speaks to the aforementioned uphill battle because for those fighting for change, they’re really fighting against systems that are so entrenched, and which require certain people to let go of their own power to make room. And that seems like it’s something that could happen or would be able to happen, but then when the change starts to happen, the backlash ensues because of the threat to the people holding the power. A pretty classic and well-worn dynamic.
Grant: And this is why the work that Dhonielle is doing, and others like her, is so meaningful. The consistency with which publishers and authors show up and do the work, despite the barriers in their way, is the work of change. I can only imagine the frustration, but also it’s inspiring to see that change in the world. We are in a very different place than we were when you and I were growing up, just in terms of the books and protagonists we see, the representation. I know that can sound like a platitude, but change is incremental, and change happens because of the commitment of these authors and industry people to stay the course, during the times when things feel like they’re going the right direction, and during the times when things feel like they’re going the wrong direction.
Brooke: Yes, an important perspective. Right now it seems a mixed bag, too. So I’ll be eager to hear from Dhonielle because she’s very passionate about her work, and what she does comes from such a personal place. It’s an honor to have her with us, and we’ll be right back with the interview after this short break.
Founding member of WNDB, I.W. Gregorio, on “How to Prepare to Write a Diverse Book”:
Do your homework!
Reach out to your friends on their areas on experience
Learn from primary sources
If you need a place to start:
Don’t be afraid to crowdsource
Check out these, and other tips here!
This Week’s Book Trend:
A lot of people are wondering—why were these two prestigious editors were let go? PRH indicated that the decision was about restructuring and was “necessary for our future growth.” As the first Black publisher at Pantheon in its 80-year history, Lucas was specifically brought on to diversify PRH’s list, making her ousting all the more explosive. This news has caused concern and scrutiny within the publishing industry.
ABOUT DHONIELLE CLAYTON
Dhonielle Clayton is a New York Times bestselling author of The Conjureverse series, The Belles series, Shattered Midnight, co-author of Blackout, Whiteout, The Rumor Game, and of the Tiny Pretty Things duology, a Netflix original series. Dhonielle taught secondary school for several years, and is a former elementary and middle school librarian. She is COO of the non-profit We Need Diverse Books, President and founder of Cake Creative and Electric Postcard Entertainment, IP story companies creating diverse books for all ages. She’s an avid traveler, and always on the hunt for magic and mischief.